The Big Untidy Magazine

An interview with Jan Schelhaas, piano player with The Scaffold

More latterly a member of both Caravan and Camel Jan Schelhaas played piano for The Scaffold between 1969 & 1971; he got the gig with the group who had just had the Christmas Number 1 with Lily the Pink as his band at the time The Business were playing regularly at the infamous O' Conner's in Liverpool.
O’Conner’s has been described variously throughout the Big Untidy Scaffold article and, as Jan agrees, was “a vibrant melting pot. I recall we played for nothing just to be amongst it. It was usual for us to play 2 or 3 songs (our first attempts at originality) then perhaps Adrian Henri, Brian Patten or indeed Roger would do a spot. Perversely Adrian Henri had been my art teacher in secondary school, a fact he liked to keep quiet about.”

Despite having followed up their 1967 smash hit single, Thank U Very Much with the success of the aforementioned L the P The Scaffolds next project was a “musical dramage, a pot pourri, an experiment” to be called Zones of Scaffold “a collage of (Scaffolds) new material both spoken and sung” which would allow them to explore “the various zones of their universe i.e. poetry humour and music.”

As Jan continues; “The upshot of all this was that Roger Mike & John approached us to join them (in Zones) at the Everyman Theatre .We took this show up to the Edinburgh Festival and lots of gigs followed .I recall an odd mixture of University venues & ABC theatres when the white suits would come out.”

And that’s the thing that remains to bemuse me, big hit records, Live album mixing music poetry and humour recorded at Queen Elizabeth Hall, a theatrical review that tours the college circuit and ends up at that summers Edinburgh Festival and within a year they’re fronting a kids TV programme. Hardly Robbie Williams is it?

Is that, I wonder, why Scaffold were never ‘accepted’ as such, didn’t fit into conventional boxes, or were they actually accepted and from this distance it just seems improbable cos it couldn’t happen now?

With his first hand knowledge and experience Jan helps me out of my quandary:
In answer to your question, Yes, they did seem to be accepted across the board. I think this was because regardless of their individual strengths, when they combined as a comic unit they were very funny.
For example, usually you don't expect a serious poet to be anything other than that but Roger could do Summer with Monica then make you laugh uncontrollably doing "An Inspector Calls" with John and then go back to poetry without one performance colouring the other. Maybe because humour through word play forms such an important part of Roger's talent.
Some of the sketches would have fitted seamlessly into Python a full two years later.

Presumably, then, that’s also why the “odd mixture” of University gigs and ABC Theatres? Did the white suits only come out for the Theatres?

Its true that a certain level of mild schizophrenia was employed in dealing with the different types of gig but it all felt quite matter of fact at the time and not at all unusual .The guys were managed by the Noel Gay Agency at the time but as "the band" we didn't have any contact there so I can't tell you if any directives about stage wear were involved suffice it to say it was
just assumed that it would be the white suits(band in black) for ABCs and jeans and whatever for Uni's.

I think I’m right in saying they also played the Working Men’s Club circuit around this time? In his book Roger mentions about how those audiences would want the hits and not the poetry and sketches; could that be a problem at some gigs?

The Scaffold didn't do working men's clubs during our tour of duty but I can see how poetry & sketches might have been an issue there as Roger says, mainly I think because the spots would have been longer.

Were all the audiences aware do you think of what the full Scaffold experience was? Or did they think it’d be lots of sing-a-long pop tunes? Did the shows differ depending on the venue / audience?

I don't think the issue of different shows for different gigs arose that much since an ABC gig usually involved a quick sketch, Lily the Pink, Thank you Very Much and off .Perfect for Sunday Night at the Palladium although we never did it) but as you say I don't think the ABC audiences by and large knew what they were missing.

The ABCs would, I think have been an issue with our own band, The Business, though had there been too many of them because while we were flattered to be working with "famous" people we did have our own agenda, namely writing and performing original material to open minded audiences .Which is why the Uni's were more enjoyable for us because as part of "Zones" we got to perform an original intro and one of our own numbers in the middle.

Ironic then that it was musical ditties that gave them the platform from which they leapt to stardom. Ironic too that whereas University audiences got to accept the ditties, the ABCers never got the chance to accept the deeper stuff.

The programme cover from Zones @ the Edinburgh festival

We did several TVs and an EMI Convention; we gave Rolf Harris a lift in the van as he was doing a spot there as well. On one occasion on a train Roger did some lyrics to a song I'd been writing .I still have them, the title was "Tailor Maid" They were terrible but so was the song.

Rolf Harris and Scaffold hurtling round London in a tour van that must be rich in anecdotes?

Sorry, the Rolf Harris story isn't very interesting. We simply gave him a lift to the hotel since he was doing the same gig as us at the EMI Convention in Grosvenor Square .What you see is what you get with him .He's just a nice guy, there may have been some small talk but that’s all.

Did the ‘Beatles by association’ thing ever go away? Or conversely did it ever get in the way?

Mike I remember came to us with the song" Butterscotch" for inclusion in ZONES saying "Our kid gave me this"
At first I couldn't understand why he needed to change his name when it was such an open secret who is brother was but then it became clear that he just wanted to be judged on his own merit without the McCartney label. Other than this the Beatles connection was neither avoided nor dwelt upon. I remember he volunteered the fact that Paul had played him Let It Be and asked him what he thought of it.

I always got the impression Roger and John made for uncomfortable pop stars?

Roger and John as you say were not entirely comfortable with singing but neither did they have any delusions of grandeur and treated it professionally, as fun.
John, however, more than made up for his musical shortcomings by delivering night after night his comedic tour de force,” Father John" [Included on the Queen Elizabeth Hall album by the way]
Speaking of humour we were encouraged to muck in now and again, bit parts etc.
One of my jobs was to provide a bloodcurdling scream during blackout just prior to the sketch "An Inspector Calls".
Lights go up, Dead body onstage!
The body, however, consisted of a pair of boots and a sack placed there by me during said blackout. John and Roger entering stage right were then charged with the task of not corpsing at the sight of the various configurations of said boots and sack, a nightly challenge.

The contrast and the comparisons between Scaffold and Liverpool Scene often intrigue me too, and never seems to have ‘got in the way’? Certainly as you say between Roger and Adrian Henri and then of course Henri and Brian Patten join Grimms with Patten staying the distance.

It was an odd experience to have met Adrian Henri as both a 12/13 year old schoolboy (he was my Art teacher) and 9 years later as an equal on the L'pool entertainment scene. I first re-met him as we were playing a late night session at a club called the "Blue Angel" run by Alan Williams. I saw him at the bar and programming took over.
"Alright Sir" I said instinctively, "Don't call me that in here" he said, and promptly began to
recount the story of the 2 dogs on the school field and the caretaker with the bucket of water. This story of course is a great leveller.

Presumably with Neil Innes coming on board the keyboard stool in GRIMMS was never available to you?

Strangely enough, there were certain people we were not destined to meet. I never met Andy Roberts or Neil Innes which took some doing given the number of parties we went to where you might have expected to see one or both of them. Odd but there you go.

Was The Business a gigging concern outside O’Conner’s? Did you ever record?

The Business did some demos but the only recording was for the "Mike Hart Bleeds" LP on John Peel's Dandelion label (spent a few nights on Peely's floor in London to achieve that) recorded Late' 69 (busy year that).

Did those Scaffold gigs put any strain on your relationship as a separate band, The Business?

Things did get a little strained when I began to be used on my own for the odd gig. Liverpool bands like most are fiercely loyal and one member doing something without the others doesn't go down too well.
For good or ill John Gorman had taken on the roll of financial interface between "Scaffold" & "Business", where the natural order of things saw the Scaffold staying at "The George" or some such 4 star hotel while we would enjoy the delights of Maggie's 1 star full English cornflake.
We bore no malice for this, confident as we were in our own inevitable rise to stardom.
However, on this occasion I was asked to do Leeds University on my own with
piano provided, I agreed, a bit reluctantly though for the reasons previously mentioned.
Just before the show I asked where I would be staying and it soon became clear that nowhere had been organised.
"Oh well,” I thought” I'll just do the show and find a hotel afterwards.
Just before the last number, however, Mike McGear approached the mike: "It seems our piano player has nowhere to stay tonight so if anyone out there can put him up it would be much appreciated", (embarrassing or what?!)
I'm sure this announcement was well meant but it was one I would not have had made given the choice since the upshot was that at 2am I found myself surrounded by well meaning yet strangely attentive intense students telling me, "We can't believe your here " and as I stared at the bare 40w light bulb and upside down sauce bottles with the prospect of a night on a hard coverless sofa I thought: "No! Neither can I, Thanks Scaffold! I owe you one!”

After the Zone gigs and one or two recoding sessions, McGough McGear and Gorman went on to GRIMMS while The Business reappeared as the National Head Band producing an album whose cover art is instantly recognisable to those of us of a certain age but I personally can’t honestly say I saw them play, maybe at Implosion at the Roundhouse and those sorts of gigs?

Jan: We then evolved into National Head Band. John Sorsky (drummer) later left replaced by Lee Kerslake [later of Uriah Heep infamy] then by Brian Dobson. Then by Jim Payne. National Head Band disbanded in late 72 and I then joined The Gary Moore Band.

Jan, you have been a great addition to the unfolding Scaffold story.

I don't mind in the least, in fact it helps me get my memories in some kind of logical order by subjecting them to the timeline. Or as Roger might say,”You can have mem or abelia but you can't have both.”

web.mac.com/jan_schelhaas